God Talk: Debates and Discussions with Believers

These are actual conversations that have taken place between religious believers and myself, through forums, email, dialogue, etc.

Confusing Faith with Evidence

Christian: God does exist.

Rebuttal: And what leads you to believe this?

Christian: There's evidence. Check out ChristianAnswers.net.

Rebuttal: How disappointing. I almost thought you could defend your own beliefs, but instead you just direct me to an apologetics website. I was asking you, not ChristianAnswers.net.

Christian: How am I supposed to defend my beliefs if you refuse to check out the references I recommend to you? I am not going to do your research for you. If I made claims without references, you would accuse me of making it up. So, I gave you a reference. I would also tell you to read the Bible, though I already know that most non-believers don't regard the Bible as evidence of anything.

Rebuttal: Wow. Ever thought of making your own arguments instead of piggy-backing off of others? I do plenty of my own research, and I don't mind when people point to references for specific claims, but telling me to go to a website to find evidence of God's existence is just inconsiderate. How about I tell you go browse infidels.org in order to understand why God doesn't exist? You think you'd have the time to do that, or would you rather just hear my reasons from ME?

Christian: You want my own arguments? I'm sure you've heard them before. Archaeology has provided evidence that proves out the Bible. So if archaeology proves out the Bible, and the Bible proves out God... well, there you have it.

Rebuttal: I get the feeling that you don't want a discussion, you just want to assert your beliefs and be done with it. Archaeology has yet to prove that there was a global flood, that Hebrews ever were in Egypt, that a place named Nazareth existed before the fourth century AD, and so forth. The bible does not prove God anymore than the Qur'an, Torah, or Bhavagad-gita do. All of them have contradictions and inconsistencies.

Christian: I'm glad to discuss things. I'm just tired of people denying valid evidence. What about fossils? What about the fact that scientists have discovered that each cell of the body contains millions of microscopic machines? What about the fact that there is about a one in one billion chance that the Earth "just happens" to be the perfect distance from the sun, and the only planet with the resources, to support life? I know of no contradictions or inconsistencies in the Bible.

Rebuttal: I'm tired of people denying valid evidence too, but I also think there's a huge misunderstanding about the relativity of some "evidence". For example, the "machines" you speak of - on what basis do you call them that? Many scientists would disagree with your use of the word or point out it's only metaphor. Look at how many planets exist and you'll see how earth is "finely-tuned". It's luck of the draw. And what do you possibly think fossils indicate about God's existence?

Christian: Fossils don't prove God. But you can find them pretty much everywhere, even in places where there has been no known flood, so fossils are evidence of a world-wide flood. Do you seriously expect me to believe that with all of this unlimited space (because, seriously, space has no limits, it just keeps going on and on forever) the Earth "just happened" to end up where it did?

Rebuttal: Oh wow. You're more deluded than I thought. Apparently you didn't pay attention in your biology classes, otherwise you'd know about stratification and how fossils buried in different layers reveal different timescales for when they were buried. If a global flood buried the animals, we should expect to see marsupials in Alaska and polar bears in Australia, but we don't. We see fossilization just as if animals evolved and died in their own regions. The funny thing is that you say "even in places where there has been no flood"... ummm, those places shouldn't exist if the flood was world-wide.

We know how the earth formed, and it wasn't by God. Gas particles came together via gravity, cooled into liquids, and those slowly cooled to eventually form solid crust for the earth. This is the same process that we've seen create other planets, and ours happened to be the lucky one out of countless billions to form in a position conducive to life. There is no mystery here, despite your poor understanding of geology and cosmology.

Christian: And exactly where did those gas particles come from? Nothing in the natural world can come from nothing, or simply exist forever and ever. Only God can do that. So, either matter has always existed, or God has always existed.

Rebuttal: The law of conservation of energy states that matter cannot be created or destroyed, only change forms. From the split second of the big bang, there was energy, so we've never known a universe without matter/energy. The law may be true and matter may be eternal, but I'm willing to say that until further evidence comes in, all we can really say right now is "we don't know". What we DO know, however, is that associating God with it doesn't help explain a damn thing.

Christian: I have two points to make here: 1) there had to be something before the big bang, and 2) If you are honest with yourself, you'll realize that God explains everything.

Rebuttal: 1) This "point" shows you have a poor understanding of the big bang. The big bang was an expansion of space and time, meaning that it was the ORIGIN of what we identify as time. What you're saying then is that there had to be something before time began, but the idea of "before" is directly related to time - in other words, it's a paradox.

2) God explains everything? Did he explain how to cure disease before medical science? Did he explain heliocentrism? God explains nothing, in reality, because no theist has been able to sufficiently explain what God even is. To say that God created the big bang or the universe gives us no help in understanding anything about how the universe came to be or how the big bang happened. All it does is attach a complex problem (God) to an already complicated problem. If you are honest with yourself, you'll realize what an idiotic statement you've just made.

Christian: What I meant was that God explains how things began, and why things are the way they are.

Rebuttal: So your god is a god of the gaps, used to fill in what you don't understand. If that makes you feel comfortable, because you're scared of admitting "I don't know" about the big questions, then that's your prerogative. Perhaps God does explain everything, but in that being the case, he really explains nothing. It's like putting a band-aid on anything that hurts, even when it doesn't need it. It may resolve some things for you, but how useful is it in actuality?

Christian: I'm not scared of admitting I don't know things. I fully admit there are things I don't understand. There are things that completely blow my mind. But I trust in God because His knowledge is above my own.

Rebuttal: What you have then is faith, not evidence.

Christian: Obviously I have faith. What I'm trying to point out to you is that there is evidence of God.

Rebuttal: ...and what I'm trying to point out to you is that your "evidence" is not evidence, and in most cases, it is built on assumptions of faith.

Christian: All right, then. I guess that's that. I'll pray for you. One day you'll realize that all the evidence you needed was right in front of your face.

Rebuttal: Yes yes, I've heard this crap before. I used to be an evangelical Christian, voicing many of the same opinions you've shared with me here. Then I started to learn about philosophy, other religions, and history, and my faith in Christianity began to wane. Open yourself up to an education, and then you'll see what evidence really is and why your god doesn't fit the bill.

Christian: I've gotten an education. I plan to go back to college in the fall. Nothing in my education has even remotely shaken my faith in God.

Rebuttal: That may be because you put faith before education, especially given that you think the fossil record supports Noah's flood. You also don't seem to know what the big bang is, all which leads me to assume that you compartmentalize what you learn, and put the faith related things in an "untouchables" box. I used to be the same way. Hopefully you'll grow out of it eventually.