God Talk: Debates and Discussions with Believers

These are actual conversations that have taken place between religious believers and myself, through forums, email, dialogue, etc.

Failed Arguments for Faith

Christian: 1. I don't practice religion but I do have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
2. Faith is pretty darn important because without it you have absolutely nothing.
3. Science can't save you! Atheism can't save you! You can't save you! Only Jesus Christ can save.

Rebuttal: 1. Yes, and alcoholics don't really have an addiction, they just have a personal relationship with alcohol. Call it what you will, believing that you interact with Jesus Christ, who is god and the savior of humanity, is still religion.

2. There are two kinds of faith: contingent and non-contingent. Contingent faith depends on other factors like evidence. I may have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, but it's faith based on reason, logic, and scientific evidence. According to history, the sun has continued to rise for thousands of years, and understanding the laws of gravity and the lifespan of yellow dwarf stars supports me in safely presuming the sun will not go anywhere anytime soon.

Religious faith, on the other hand, is non-contingent faith. It is faith for the sake of faith, in spite of any evidence. Hebrews 11:1 says faith is "being sure of what we hope for" and "certain of what we do not see". Religious faith is blind and is really like having nothing, because you simply make things up and/or believe whatever you think sounds good. This kind of faith has inspired centuries of war, murder, and injustice, because it has no concern for reason or evidence.

3. No one's claiming that science or atheism can save us, because that implies that we need to be saved in the first place. I reject that idea though. According to your beliefs, god created Adam and Eve with the knowledge that they would fail his test in the garden. Thus god decided to create fallen creatures and to save us from his own mistakes. Adam and Eve certainly hadn't received any lesson on why disobedience was bad or what deceit (from the serpent) was. It wasn't until they ate from the tree that they learned the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong. Some brilliant plan there.

Christian: You and I both have seen enough good & evil in this world. Good & evil are a result of the human heart. Good & evil are a result of choices that you and I make. Maybe just maybe this life that you and I both have. . . actually has a purpose? Perhaps its to see what we will do with Jesus Christ . . . a choice? Will we accept Him or will we thumb our noses to Him and the Father? I find it interesting as we become more of a Godless society, the more depraved mankind has become. Not to say that early mankind was perfect, only to say that now more than ever evil is more rampant than ever.

Rebuttal: Evil is more rampant now? Even though we've ended slavery in much of the world? Even though child sacrifice is no longer part of major religious rituals? Even though people have worked with science to extend human life by several decades? Even though extremely horrible diseases like polio and small pox have been practically eliminated? Oh, I forgot - you believe that even the best in life is evil if your dead Jewish rabbi Jesus isn't attached to it. Sorry, but even Jesus taught some pretty abhorrent and evil things in the bible. And think of all the violence that has been done in his name!

Christian: God gave you and I free will, the ability to make our own choices. God does not force himself upon you (man may, but not God). There is also a Devil who hates God. Its the desire of the Devil to hurt God and he does that by deceiving you and I (whom God loves) from the truth. Because God is Holy and Righteous, He must deal with sin, He must deal with our poor choices. Thats why Christ died on the Cross.

Rebuttal: I agree that we have free will, but it only exists without your god. You see, if god is all-knowing, then he knows what we do before we do it. If god can't be wrong and he brought this universe into existence knowing everything that will happen, then free will is an illusion. We can only do exactly what god already knows we will do.

Christian: One last thought. If you change your mind sight from looking at Christianity as a religion (something man made) to an actual relationship with God. If you earnestly seek God and pray to Him not with vain repetition but sharing your thoughts, likes and dislikes; God is honorable and true to his word that he will make himself real to you. . as He has to me. It doesnt happen overnight and you must me genuine. IT TAKES FAITH. I wish you well and pray that God will bless you as He blessed me.

Rebuttal: Allow me to let you in on a little secret. I've heard absolutely everything you've said before, many many times. In fact, two or three years ago, I would've made very similar statements and agreed with you about who you think Jesus Christ was. However, when I really opened my eyes and my mind and read the bible, I could no longer believe its ancient myths. I had the faith and all the excuses to counter objections to my faith, but when I decided to do the intellectually honest and respectable thing of stepping back to analyze my beliefs in a way as objective and unbiased as possible, I discovered that my reasons for believing in Jesus were no better than the reasons Muslims believe in Muhammad, or that Mormons believe in Joseph Smith - and those were all reasons for belief that I rejected.

Faith shuts off the mind, this wonderful thing that you believe god has given us. It discounts all evidence and all logic when it has to, in favor of primitive superstitions and warm fuzzy feelings. Contrary to Christian propaganda, using our brains to think things through is NOT relying on fallible human beings, it's reminding ourselves that we are prone to error when we assume things without reason and without evidence. Christianity may be just one more man-made religion among many, but if you never seriously deal with the possibility or give it fair consideration, you will forever remain trapped in blissful ignorance. That can be nice for an individual... until another individual uses their blissful ignorance as a means to cross over into your territory and tell you how you should be living your life.

I wish you well too and hope you will realize that people account for all the 'blessing' (and cursing) in this world, not any god.