God Talk: Debates and Discussions with Believers

These are actual conversations that have taken place between religious believers and myself, through forums, email, dialogue, etc.

The Hardened Hearts of Atheists

Christian: Atheism is a condition of the heart, not of the mind. It's common to hear statements like "If you could prove to me [insert fact here], I would beleive. But you can't, so I won't." So, even if you could "win" every argument of their mind, in reality, it never was the issue to begin with.

Rebuttal: The same could be applied to you. Creationists and Christians will always believe, in spite of the evidence, because that kind of faith is valued in your religion. For some people atheism may be a condition of the heart if they're rebellious and don't really know why they disbelieve, but you make a broad sweeping generalization to say all are like that. To me, that's the same argument as claiming atheism is just another religion or also takes faith. Isn't that kind of demeaning to faith/religion itself too, to act like that automatically makes atheism any less important or valid?

Christian: I would argue that, by biblical definition, an atheists heart *is* hardened. However, I do accept that atheists can certainly entertain ideas outside of their way of thinking. But, I believe it's an issue of capacity, not of will.

Rebuttal: Uh huh. Fortunately for those of us who are not blinded to the truth (as religion always does to people, by definition), we know to take the bible with a grain of salt. We also know that you don't understand things like evolution and logic and science because of your limited capacity, not of willful refusal. Is this not insulting and offensive to you? If it is, then maybe you'll understand part of why there are atheists who openly protest religion for what you believe about us.

Christian: I would use an analogy of someone who is color-blind. We could explain to this person everything we know about how color "works"... we could define it, explain frequency shifts between the different colors, show evidence of how color impacts the viewers through case studies, etc.... but what really is the experiencial value to the color blind person? Having gone from a state of unbelief to belief in my own life, I can explain to you the differences in a similar way that I could explain colors to someone who is color-blind. But, to them, it's not real. They lack the capacity to perceive it.

Rebuttal: You're essentially saying "you don't understand, because you're not on our side". But once again this can apply equally to you. How can you dismiss Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, the Bahai faith, or the countless others unless you have the capacity to perceive them? And according to you, this capacity means being a part of the faith. Now you'll mention the bible and what it says, but rest assured that the Quran, the Torah, the Bhagavad-gita and several others make this same claim. "You don't understand because you're not one of us" or "you don't understand because you haven't honestly sought answers".

This is the biggest cop-out believers of any faith can offer when faced with criticism. Whether we know the bible like a Christian or not, that doesn't change the challenges we present to your faith. And many atheists were once Christians, so I think it's narrow-minded to pretend we lack the capacity to comprehend a 2,000 year old book that even Christians themselves are still having trouble deciphering, as they argue over vastly different interpretations of many passages.

Instead of belittling people you know nothing about, here's a novel idea - enlighten them as to where they're wrong. Help them to see how they're taking a verse out of context, for example. Not all atheists are incapable of understanding, and with that attitude, how exactly do you hope to reach others?

Christian: I will say that as a believer I do enjoy the faith-building nature of historical evidence that supports my belief. But, that isn't what won my heart over to faith initially. Ultimately, that job is God's.

Rebuttal: You like discussing things when it's agreed upon that it supports your faith, but you shy away from people who tend to disagree. I don't recall any parables about how it's better to ignore those who question your beliefs than it is to treat them like normal inquisitive human beings. And if Jesus had such a problem with skepticism, why didn't he admonish Thomas for his doubts of Christ's resurrection?

Christian: I say all this more for the believers on this forum. I think we tend to misunderstand the nature of these debates, and end up compromising our testimonies as we somehow try to "win". The best thing we can do is pray for our non-believing friends, family members, and netizens who lack faith - and pray that God opens their spiritual eyes.

Rebuttal: Perhaps you say this all with good intentions, but it's no better than arguing to win, as you put it. Instead of telling us we're wrong and giving us the civilized forum of debate (although it's not always civil, I admit), you'll try to avoid discussion by concluding that we're incapable of understanding? You know, Richard Dawkins has said a similar thing of creationists, and he refuses to debate them because he thinks it gives the impression that the two ideas of creation and evolution are on equally arguable footing. I don't like to be that pessimistic, I'd rather think some people are genuinely uneducated about evolution and would be open to knowing more. However, I see his point too.

If you come at atheists with this crap, they'll say what I've just said and point out how you're trying to wriggle out of debate because you can't defend your own beliefs. If you don't enjoy debate with non-believers, don't debate with them, but don't then try to justify it by saying we're all close-minded and can never comprehend. Of course the bible says such things, because all religious texts realize the merit in vilifying one's "enemies" or the "opposition" as much they can. If you can always conclude that they just don't get it and can never get it, you exempt yourself from reconciling the numerous contradictions and theological difficulties in the bible. But I digress...

Maybe I'm guilty of fruitlessly trying to change your mind. You can hold up the bible and say, "but this is what I believe!" and be content to take it's every word on the manners and behaviors and thoughts of non-believers. Or you can do the respectable, humane thing and get to know some non-believers yourself, ask them questions, make it clear you don't wish to debate, but are generally interested in their worldview. Is that so difficult? It irks me when Christians get so absorbed into their bibles that they don't realize the world outside them has changed drastically since biblical times. Most Christians don't feel the need to follow every old cultural law left in the bible these days, so why take the bible's word about non-believers, instead of finding out from the non-believers for yourself?