God Talk: Debates and Discussions with Believers

The following is from an email correspondence I had with a Muslim over the video website YouTube. Please excuse the mishaps of spelling and grammar, as this has been copied and pasted directly from the conversations, with no editing.

Islamic Intolerance and Muhammad's Child Bride

Muslim: You ask if we believe in Allah as God, Muhammad (pbuh) as the Prophet and the Qur�an as the word of God. Why do we defend it�

We do this in the cause of our faith, and to protect the un-tampered sanctity of what we love� This is our life� And unfortunately we have to defend it because of people like you, the instigator, seed planter, aggressor, racist, and uneducated. We defend our Allah�s word, as you defend you gay band �Rush�, the same you way you defend your homes, and those you love. Why else smart guy�

Just leave Muslims Alone�Think you can handle that?

~Muhsin~ Muslim 1.5 Billion (1) Against the Kufar.

Rebuttal: You missed my point. I know why Muslims defend Islam, but why do you think your god needs your help defending it? Do you even know what self-evident means? I defend my home and those I love because their value is NOT self-evident to many people, but you Muslims believe that Islam is for everyone and everyone can and should see the truth of it. If that's the case, then it shouldn't need you to defend it - only a weak religion with flaws would need so much defense, and only someone who's faith is weak would spend so much time defending it.

You have also made big assumptions about me, calling me an instigator, seed planter, aggressor, racist, and uneducated, as well as remarking that Rush is gay. I know many Muslims are severe homophobes, but why do you feel the need to demonize me, especially when you don't even know me? I have not attacked you personally, I have only questioned Islam and the Muslims who cry vehemently for censorship of all things disagreeing with them.

Just leave Muslims alone? Why have you responded to me if you want to be left alone? Muslims, especially on YouTube, are the ones starting the arguments with their underhanded tactics of censorship, flagging, spamming, etc. I don't seem to ever encounter a Muslim who understands that I'm seeking answers to questions and can have a civil conversation with me. You all spew hate and intolerance at even the slightest suggestion that your book or your prophet could be wrong. Even some Christians can discuss their faith with me without losing their temper, but I have yet to find a Muslim that won't attack me in one way or another for simply being skeptical of what they believe in.

Why are you so afraid of your faith being challenged? Once again, if it's self-evident and you have the truth on your side, then you should have nothing to fear. But you defend your beliefs viciously and attack those who disagree with you viciously. If Islam is truly supposed to be a "religion of peace", people like you have convinced the world that it's only just the opposite - a religion of war and hate and intolerance.

Muslim: You are incredibly blind, you say "Your God"; Allah is God to all of mankind Jews, Christians, and Muslims...Which Christians defend their belief the same way. You say "You Muslims" And its discriminatory; why don't you try and act humane. And no we don't believe that anyone can see or believe in the truth because the Qur'an warns us about the disbelieving people. I love when a non-Muslim tries to tell me about Islamic values...So since and religions defend themselves, I guess you're calling them all weak. Meaning you must be an atheist. I have made no assumption about you, you've told on yourself. You say you have not attacked me personally, but you have...I represent the Muslims you call "cryers" I am Islam, and Islam is me.

Islam is a religion of peace, I have threatened you in no way. I have stood up for my life. And so you deny our peace, with crossed opinionated garbage.

Most of all I'm not afraid of being challenged, bring unbiased intellectual facts, and I will answer your challenge.

Rebuttal: Allah is your god, despite whatever you believe about him being god to the other religions too. Clearly not everyone agrees that your god is also their god, so what you think of it really doesn't matter. You think me saying "you Muslims" is discriminatory? What would you prefer I call you? You belong to a group of religious believers called Muslims, don't you? Muslims are not a race or a gender or any kind of identity that you can't help having. Discrimination against choices is not bad. You choose to be a Muslim, and I can disagree with you. That's not discrimination, so why don't you get off your pedestal and learn about more than just Islam?

Yes, I am an atheist, and I do not hide the fact. The only way you would represent the Muslims I called "crybabies", would be if you support censoring anything and everything that disagrees with you. If you do, then I have attacked you and will continue to do so, because that's not even worth being civil over. If you can't handle freedom of ideas and you want to shut up people who challenge you, then you deserve no respect. However, if you're a Muslim who values the importance of sharing ideas and criticism, then I have no complaints against you and my words were not directed at you.

The problem is that I can't bring unbiased facts, because anytime I would question the Quran or Muhammad, you would think it's biased because I'm an atheist arguing from an atheist perspective. But by the same token, any way you attempt to validate and prove Islam, you're using biased facts too. We can't escape biases, but Islam is such an old religion by now that it's hard to present facts that are not disputed. I only challenge what the Quran says, how Muhammad has lived, and how Muslims preach the truth of their faith. If I misunderstand anything, how will I know unless it's clarified to me? I hear and read all this from very biased, strictly Muslim sources, so I assume they know a thing or two about their own beliefs.

But for the sake of your "challenge" to me, I'd like to ask you a question. One of the things that amazes me about Islam is how Muslims seem to ignore or excuse away the fact that Muhammad's wife Aisha was only 9 at the time they consummated the marriage. If Muhammad is a prophet of a high and holy god, then why would Allah have permitted this if there could be any question of it's morality, even centuries later?

Muslim: God in Arabic is Allah...Do you understand how to translate?

And I will ignore all the other biased statement you made... But to answer your question about Aisha. Muhammad (pbuh) was asked to be a wali (Protector) over her. In this time was a time of war, and Allah asked all Muslim to be a protector over all woman without homes, or guardian and Aisha was from a broken home. The members who accompanied Muhammad (pbuh) asked that Aisha be taken in his scholarship as he was a man of vast knowledge.

In Islam we can marry "up to" 4 wives..But is we cannot treat them justly then we are to marry only one. And in Islam when a woman begins to menstruate she is old enough to marry. Its bas been debated Aisha was between the age of 9-12. And this is a different culture and way of life away from western civilization. And most of all looked down upon in todays society as it is no longer the 7th century.

Rebuttal: Yes, I know Allah means "God" in Arabic, but many people still differentiate between their god and your god. You wouldn't say the Hindu god is the same as Allah, would you? Christians call their god just "God", but they don't believe it's the same god as Allah. If you can't get that simple point of what I was saying, then maybe it's just beyond your understanding.

If that's true about Muhammad, then I will say I respect him for taking in Aisha, but was it required of him to marry her and to have sex with her at such a young age? And I agree it is a different culture than western civilization and a different time than today, certainly. However, doesn't that kind of mean the Quran shouldn't be taken very literally, if some of it speaks to a different time and culture? Would Muslims find it acceptable for a 50 year old man to marry a 9 year old girl today?

Muslim: Truth about Hindu's is that they have more than 100 religions...So I would say that yes Allah is there God. The one who created them...Not the false ones they worship...No matter what you worship...Allah is still your creator and your God. You can get your point across without trying to insult me by saying "Its beyond my understanding:" Is ration beyond you?

You ask me a question, and I give you the factual answer. You still can not accept it... Because you follow by saying "If" that is true...The "If" Is the doubt which makes you an Atheist. Requirement in marriage don't just relate to our prophet (pbuh). Is sex a requirement in marriage? thats up to you. And in todays life Muslim's will marry off their daughters as young as 15 years old. IN other countries.

Rebuttal: I'm not insulting you, simply saying that you don't seem capable of understanding from an atheist perspective. I say it doesn't matter what you worship, there is no evidence for any god. When I said "your god", I only said it in such a way as to point out that even though you don't believe other peoples' gods are real, to them their gods are just as real as you think Allah is.

And what a surprise! You think I'm in denial of the answer you've given me, because I ask more questions. The "if" is the doubt which makes me a skeptic, not an atheist. You're a skeptic of other religions, and an atheist of religions like Hinduism. Maybe I still cannot accept your answer because you haven't really given me a good answer. Are you saying Muhammad never had sex with Aisha? I was under the impression that in those times, to "consummate" a marriage meant you had sex with that person you married.

Muslim: Sex in Islam is not what consummates a marriage. So, maybe you're right; I don't understand the Atheist prospective... But to say their are no evidence of God is crazy...It's all in front of you, you were created from a simple clot of coagulated blood, your sign is the air you breath. Knowing their is not oxygen in space or water to survive. But somehow there's a divinity, which provides both where there was none. And no I don't believe other gods are real, because then I would be in association with those who think God is 3 people in one.

And I don't think you are in denial because you ask me more questions.. I just ask that that you honor them without debate. Go and research it.. So you just told me if this is true then you can respect Muhammad (pbuh) for taking in Aisha...But now you say, you can not accept this because you think I haven't given you a good answer. Sorry I haven't passed your standards... What ever they are...Do you know?

Rebuttal: I don't think sex should be what consummates a marriage either, I'd just heard that about the culture of that time when Muhammad lived. As for "evidence" of God, we are not created from blood, we came from sperm, you and I both. That's been known for centuries. You say divinity provided oxygen and water on Earth, but oxygen exists outside the Earth (there's just not enough of it to breathe) and so does hydrogen. You combine the two and you get water. Not really a divine thing, just a science thing.

You want me to honor your answers without debate? You certainly aren't honoring mine, you argue them and think I'm a horribly immoral person just because I'm an atheist. I don't want to debate, I just want to discuss and better understand, but if there are things that trouble me, why shouldn't I ask questions?

My standards are verifiable truths, not truths written in books or spoken by people, but truths that can be tested and shown to be correct. Those truths can have no room for doubt, but all others do. I respect Muhammad for taking in Aisha and being kind to her if that's what really happened. I can't just take your word for it or anyone else's, but I will research and learn more about it. I plan on reading the Hadiths soon, and maybe some of the Muslim philosophy books. I enjoy learning what I can, but I'm not going to accept anything as truth unless I see there can be no alternative.

Muslim: Again its not in the Qur'an....Muhammad (pbuh) did not write the Qur'an there for it is not a book of memoirs about what is marriage constitutes.

And Muhammad (pbuh) honored the direction of his creator without straying the path. It doesn't matter what your impression is. Time and culture have everything to do with it...There were no laws on what age a girl could be married then...Today there are...Are you thinking about what you're saying?

Rebuttal: Yes, I'm thinking clearly, but do you realize what you just admitted? "There were no laws on what age a girl could be married then...Today there are" - so then as I said, those verses should not be taken as freedom for Muslims to marry 9 year old girls today, because times have changed and cultures have changed. I don't remember a specific sura or verse, but I'm sure Muhammad's marriage to Aisha is mentioned in the Quran. If you say there were no laws back then, but today there are laws, then you're saying Muslims should not marry pre-teen girls today, and so those parts of the Quran should be seen as part of that past culture and time, and not be taken literally.