God Talk: Debates and Discussions with Believers

These are actual conversations that have taken place between religious believers and myself, through forums, email, dialogue, etc.

"Miraculous" Agriculture and "Real" Bible Heroes

Christian: God shared [agricultural] information with the Israelites before they entered the promised land. This was told to these people while they were in a desert right after having grown up as slaves. These people had no experience in agriculture to write down those helpful observations. If they had then that would be a more plausible suggestion. Since they didn't and their very survival to still exist as a people and a nation defies reasoning, I'd say that something more than what we know naturally must have been going on.

Rebuttal: You are relying entirely on the biblical account of the Jewish people though, and as I've said before, we still have not found a shred of archaeological evidence for Jews being enslaved in Egypt. However, if the Jews were indeed enslaved there, we know that Egypt was a highly agrarian civilization, so it could be possible the Jews learned it from them. Even the bible says that the promised land was abundant and agriculturally rich, so they would've had plenty of time to learn their own techniques if that part of the story is true. None of this would validate God's intervention though, especially since you're arguing for a "miracle" that's so common it would well be next to impossible to prove a divine origin.

Christian: This is the history of a nation of people we are talking about. This is their written account of what happened. There are too many flaws in their lead characters (like Abraham, Samson and King David) for this to be made up. I may not have proven it to you yet, but I have enough proof for myself that I believe. Maybe you need to seek out proof for yourself.

Rebuttal: Too many flaws to be made up? Have you ever heard of "tragic heroes" in literature? They are very useful devices for teaching moral lessons. If the Israelites were indeed suffering through hard times back in Old Testament days, the stories of people like Moses, Abraham, Samson, and David probably served to raise spirits. The underdog who pushes on through adversity is a common theme in classic literature, and understandably favored by people going through their own struggles, like African American slaves and railroad workers appreciation of characters like John Henry.

Christian: That's when making up fiction. This is about historical matters.

Rebuttal: Prove it. John Henry was portrayed as an American. America is a real place, but that doesn't prove John Henry actually existed. He worked on helping the railroad expansion into the Western mountains during the 19th century. Those events really did take place historically, but once again, that doesn't prove John Henry actually existed. It is possible that the legend of John Henry did form around a man named John Henry, but what is obvious and likely is that the stories became distorted over time into allegory. Some of the original facts may remain, but that doesn't mean the entire story - exactly as it is told - is true.

Christian: When writing history there is a tendancy among people to want to keep things as positive and straight forward as possible (unless writing an investigating book in recent times). Any flaws are usually minor, but with this history we see that Abraham is a covetous liar, Samson is a prideful man filled with lust, and King David is an adulterer. All of these are the people in Israel's history that are held in high regard even though they broke the law and went against God. These are historical figures of a nation of people that are still around today.

Rebuttal: And what is common among all those biblical heroes? They redeem themselves by the end of their lives, and turn from their "wicked ways". There are blatant moral lessons attached to each one of them. As I just said about John Henry, it may well be that Abraham, Samson, and David actually existed - but that certainly does not mean the bible's account of their lives or actions is 100% accurate.