God Talk: Debates and Discussions with Believers

These are actual conversations that have taken place between religious believers and myself, through forums, email, dialogue, etc.

Prophecy and Probability

Christian: There are close to 100 recorded prophecies about who Jesus would be, where he would be born and many other extremely precise things that are carbon dated to 100 years before JC ever lived.

Rebuttal: Actually, Jesus failed to fulfill many prophecies and the ones he did fulfill were often misinterpreted or were not really prophecies to begin with. It doesn't matter if these things are carbon dated to 100 years before Christ, if they're not clearly prophetic (which they aren't).

Christian: What about in Psalms when David poetically describes crucifixion from Jesus' point of view and he describes him hanging on a cross bones out of joint, hands and feet pierced, hypovolemic shock caused by heart failure. This was 300 years b4 crucifixion was a known form of punishment. David had never seen a crucifixion.

Rebuttal: Psalm 22 is poetry, not prophecy, never has been considered prophecy, not even by the NT (New Testament) authors, there is actually no clear reference to crucifixion at all either, only to a vague sort of suffering and torture. The part about pierced hands and feet is controversial and translated totally different in Hebrew bibles.

Christian: I am not sure I would agree with the idea that Psalm 22 has NEVER been considered prophecy. Do the NT authors ever say they DON'T consider it prophecy, or do they simply not express their beliefs on the matter? Also, I think just because something is poetic doesn't mean it can't be prophetic Its also interesting that David talks about his clothes being divided and lots being cast for them. The NT says the same thing happens to Jesus and so does Justin Martyr in his letter to the Emperor.

Rebuttal: For centuries, Jewish and Christian traditions have divided the Old Testament into categories. You have the books of law, the books of poetry, the books of prophecy, etc. Under no tradition has Psalms ever been lumped in with the prophetic books. Psalm 22 already has an original meaning, referring to David. For you to suggest a secondary and prophetic meaning requires more than just your speculation. And the possibility is always there that the NT authors just used some of Psalm 22 to write of Jesus.

Christian: Why does suggesting a prophetic meaning require more than just my speculation?

Rebuttal: Because prophecy is not something we see fulfilled every day, it is an extraordinary claim of the ability to tell the future. Millions of people have prophesied events that never happened, so we know there are frauds out there. So to make a claim of prophecy believable or likely, it needs to have a great deal of evidence and be shown to be more plausible than other explanations. Speculation is not proof of anything, it's just talk.

Christian: Why does the division of genre mean prophecy can't exist in poetry? Aren't there prophetic books with poetry?

Rebuttal: It doesn't mean this, it only means that generally the book is made up mostly of one or the other. Sure, there could be prophecy in poetry and poetry in prophecy, but any good scholar will explain where and how the two overlap, not just simply say that they could. If you want to argue that Psalm 22 is David's poetry and messianic prophecy, feel free to state your case.

Christian: Since it is a possibility that the NT authors used some of Psalm 22 to write of Jesus, would you also admit there is a possibility that they did not use some of Psalm 22 to write of Jesus?

Rebuttal: Anything is possible, including that the NT authors did not use Psalm 22 to write of Jesus. But we should concern ourselves with what is probable, and that is established by the more evidence you can introduce for something. It's all about determining what is best supported by the surrounding context, the nature of the characters, etc. Seeing that the NT authors often quoted the OT, I do think it's likely that they could have used some of Psalm 22 when they wrote of Jesus.

Christian: Its clear you know a lot about the Bible and the issues people have with it. But isnt there a lot of overlap between Ps 22 and the gospels? The dividing of garments, the casting of lots to see who keeps them, Jesus saying "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" The way the heart gives out when you are crucified because it can't pump blood to the body.

Rebuttal: Yes, I will agree that there is a lot of overlap, and maybe the NT authors did consider Psalm 22 to be prophecy - but looking at the text of Psalm 22 does not support such an interpretation. It's very possible that the NT authors were inspired to write about Jesus, taking elements from Psalm 22, to make him seem divine. Or Jesus could have even been familiar with Psalm 22 and just acted out some of it himself, like saying "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?".

Christian: You say that the NT writers should quote Ps 22 if it is prophecy, but don't you also say that if they quote prophecy from the OT that they are just fabricating history to have it match the prophecies?

Rebuttal: When the NT authors quote something they believe to be prophecy, they usually say something like "as the scripture says" (Romans 10:11, John 7:38) or even "This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet..." (Matthew 21:4) before they quote the OT verses. Interestingly, the parallels between the gospels and Psalm 22 - the casting of lots for Christ's clothes and his words on the cross - are not referred to in this way. The NT authors never link these things to scripture or to the Psalms.

I am not saying that any quotation of the OT by the NT authors is automatically due to their own act of fabricating things later on. I'm merely suggesting in this case what I consider to be a far more likely explanation than the alternative of it being truly fulfilled prophecy. When there's a more plausible explanation that doesn't invoke the supernatural, we do ourselves a disservice to prefer what borders on fantasy over what is closest to reality.

Christian: So why is it more probable that the authors wrote about Jesus taking elements from Psalm 22 to make him seem divine than Psalm 22 actually being prophetic?

Rebuttal: Like I said, it's more probable because we already know that the NT authors were very familiar with the OT, and we also know that millions of people throughout history have made failed predictions. Actual prophecy that is fulfilled is an extreme rarity, if it ever happens at all.

Christian: How do you know that the supernatural is fantasy and not reality?

Rebuttal: I didn't say it was fantasy, I said it borders on fantasy, which I think any reasonable person will agree with. People are not resurrected normally, we have no living witnesses to resurrection, and we find the concept in a number of ancient religions and mythologies, all widely considered fantasy today. If someone wants to prove that resurrection is a reality, be my guest, but until they do, they ought to realize that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", as Carl Sagan said. For all intents and purposes, it is fantasy until proven otherwise.