God Talk: Debates and Discussions with Believers

These are actual conversations that have taken place between religious believers and myself, through forums, email, dialogue, etc.

Purpose From God

Christian: I have [questioned my belief and the existence of God] many a time, and also had it questioned by others...it's the only view that gives me a total, complete philosophical framework. Without what I believe, I cannot make sense of anything, nothing is intelligible. I could assume things about how reality works...but I wouldn't really be making sense of anything, just pretending to.

Rebuttal: That's a nice sentiment, I'm sure, but one you really cannot prove. You are pretending to make sense of things by claiming God is that by which reality works. Here you are making the argument from ignorance yet again. "I can't make sense of anything, I can't conceive of anything apart from God - therefore my God must exist and must be a better belief than any other".

Christian: I look at how the teachings of Christ affect me, the impact they have on my life. When I live according to the teachings of Christ, I'm a lot happier and more at peace than when I've lived for myself and done what I wanted to. When I live apart from Christ, I find no fulfillment, no completion, no satisfaction, even pleasant events are merely momentary and of little lasting value. And it's not that I believe that Christ is punishing me every single instant I step out of line, but rather that living in Christ is what I'm meant to do, it's what is best for me, it's what makes my life greater than it would otherwise be.

Without Christ, there is ultimately no hope, no purpose, no real impetus to do anything in particular at all. One can argue they've found meaning, purpose, ambitions, goals, etc, but without a universal to make sense of the particulars, it's all arbitrary and therefore without any real meaning. What good was living when one is dead? And it's not that I fear death or dying (a common anti-Christian claim) and that I just believe because it makes me feel better. It's rather that "to feel" has a definition and a purpose because of Christ, as does "to live." Without Christ, all you're left with is "dying" and "to die." That's all your life ultimately amounts to. Sure, you can do something that has a lasting impact on those who have yet to live or finish living. But in the eons to come, the human race will die out, and all worldly accomplishments will be irrelevant.

Rebuttal: I can understand someone needing religion or faith in God to make sense of things in their own life. But to assert that everyone else needs it too is blatantly false. The sad fact of the matter is that even IN Christ there are still many people who feel no purpose, ambition, goal, etc. And on top of that, atheists and non-believers still give to charity, still have hope for the future, and practically do everything believers do that you're speaking of. If it's purpose you wish to talk about, let me remind you that the purpose of our universe's creation certainly does not seem to be that of producing life, but rather the purpose of producing blackholes. Lifeforms are greatly outnumbered, as I'm sure you know.

Your purpose you claim to believe in is one that cannot be validated until after death. The atheist and non-believer's purpose is one they create themselves, yet in reality, ALL humans do this. We decide what we want to live for, stand for, die for, etc. To think we have a greater purpose beyond that is quite arrogant of us, I'd say. Perhaps we simply think such a thing because we want to feel special in this vastly empty space we occupy.

Christian: I don't doubt that many atheists do such things [give to charity, still have hope for the future, etc] or claim such attributes of their own life. But my questions would be "why," "for what reason," "with what intent" for the former, and "how do you know," "how can you be certain," and "what do those things mean to begin with" for the latter.

Rebuttal: Why do certain animals display altruistic tendencies? Did Jesus die for them too and encourage them to do good works in his name? I think it's part of our nature to help others. It's no big secret to me, the concept of "do unto others", and it's been around long before it was written in the Bible. Obviously all of us don't exhibit purely altruistic behavior, but I think most of us do. Because we're the same species, we can relate to the suffering others endure and the things they experience. Helping others is beneficial to our survival. I think those things mean as much as we give them - if it's some cosmic compulsion we feel to be moral in the eyes of God, that is meaningless to me.

Christian: You claim we cannot know the truth of our claims until we meet death. To that I say you cannot know the truth of that claim until you meet Truth, for on your own you do not have it. No man can be his own integration point, his own infinite point of reference, his own source of universals. You can make all these grand claims and bold assertions trying to detract from the Faith we hold, but you lack a sufficient base from which to give breadth and weight to these assertions to begin with.

Rebuttal: I don't consider myself to be my own source of universals, because I'm not sure I believe universals exist. Even if they do exist, as I've mentioned many times already, I wouldn't lay claim to any of them, since I realize my subjective perceptions would still get in the way and "pollute" those universals as they exist in actuality. You, on the other hand, ascribe very specific thoughts, feelings and details to your idea of God. You've said that you believe those are immutable and that many of the laws of the universe are as well. You are the one who is making claims in support of universals.

You might say you get those from God's revelation (the Bible), but that is hardly a sufficient base from which to give breadth and weight to your assertions. You interpret the Bible in your own way. That makes your God almost a surrogate ego, a deity you've fashioned in your own likeness, conforming to what you think most rational or logical of a god. Understand that to me, you are the one who is trying to be his own source for universals and his own infinite point of reference. Just because you got the framework for this god out of the Bible doesn't mean you haven't altered it to fit your ideals.

Christian: You claim that a non-believer's purpose is one they create themselves, but the thing is, what real meaning does the word "purpose" have in a non-believing worldview? As I said before in my last post, in a non-believing worldview, in strange eons nothing that is done or has ever been done on earth will matter or even be knowable. All a non-believer has is the illusion of purpose, a means to an ultimately fruitless and irrelevant end. They might as well have never existed at all, for that will be the impact their "life" has on the course of our universe, however long it remains. All you decide is how you will futilely spend your short and irrelevant existence (yet another word which a non-believer is ultimately unable to define, many have tried and been unsuccessful).

Rebuttal: I disagree. Look at the progress certain individuals have made in society and technology over the last several centuries. Is that not a purpose that matters and will be known for some time? Many millennia down the road it may be forgotten, but it's not as though the dead will care. You phrased it so crudely. I'd say it's more like the line in Lord of the Rings: "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us". Why is that not enough? By what criteria would you even determine what is enough of a purpose and what is not?

Christian: A Christian's purpose is to serve God, to live as Christ did and abide in Him and by His Word. James said that true religion is about caring for widows and orphans in their distress and keeping oneself from being polluted by the world (James 1:27). That alone is purpose enough. Whatever other things the Lord has in store for them is between them and the Lord, but it's all ultimately up to Him. Without Him, we cannot even make goals, let alone accomplish them. You might say "well I do it every day," but to that I would say that you do not have eyes to see or ears to hear, you would be missing the significance.

Rebuttal: Why do you feel that's "purpose enough"? Because the book tells you? How is that any more rational or justified than being a good person to others out of a genuine desire to do so, without any submission/obligation to a god?

I guess it comes down to our opposing viewpoints. You will say I can do nothing without God, because you so strongly believe God exists. I will say everything you do is without God, because I see no reason or evidence to conclude that he exists, let alone that he's such an active part of our existence and our lives.