God Talk: Debates and Discussions with Believers

These are actual conversations that have taken place between religious believers and myself, through forums, email, dialogue, etc.

Real Christians Keep God's Law

Christian: Most people who claim to be christians aren't. I believe this is why people have turned from God in some cases, if christians don't believe it why should I. The misrepresentation of who God is and what walking with him is has been overshadowed by hypocritical actions and thinking.

Rebuttal: By what basis do you declare them not to be Christians, and how do you know your standard for judging them isn't merely your own opinion?

Christian: The basis is the bible, that is the only gauge we have to determine if someone is walking correctly. Jesus said "if you love me, you will keep my commandments". The word commandments is not the ten commandments, it is the whole word of God.

Rebuttal: Yes, and the whole word of God includes the ten commandments and the rest of the Mosaic Law, doesn't it? So do you follow the food law, the sabbath law, and the other parts of the Old Testament?

Christian: You know the bible a little, but do you realize that those laws were for the Jews. Paul clashed with the Jewish believers in acts because they wanted non-Jewish believers to get circumcised. That was a Jewish tradition set in place by God for the Jews, not the Gentiles. There are many laws in the bible that do not apply today, simply because Jesus put all laws into two. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor the way you love yourself.

Rebuttal: Yes, those laws were for the Jews, but there is no indication in the Hebrew scriptures that God ever intended to change his laws in order to apply them to Gentiles. That was Paul's idea, and Paul was as anti-Judaism as they come. There was even a rumor among the Ebionites that Paul had converted only to marry the daughter of a high priest, and when she rejected him, he became the apostate we find in the New Testament. Jesus clearly said the Mosaic Law is to be followed, in Matthew 5:17-19.

Christian: Don't take it out of context, he meant that he would fulfill the law with how he lived. In those two laws is all of the law wrapped up, If you love each other the way you love yourself you will not be breaking any of the laws. As far as Paul goes you said it all when you said "rumor". It is a new covenant through christ. Get his spirit in you and He will guide you.

Rebuttal: Sorry buddy, but it is people like you who take Christ's words out of context from the bible by believing that "fulfilling" the law somehow means it's no longer applicable to you. Now Jesus did violate a lot of the OT law, so he hardly fulfilled it, but he says in Matt. 5:19 - "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven". Are you really going to argue with Christ's own instruction?

Christian: The "law" that Jesus broke was not law, but traditions. The Jews were taking the laws and changing them to suit themselves, and Jesus came to set them straight, but they rejected him, so he came to the Gentiles. The same thing is happening today because people are trying to live by the law when we have been redeemed from the law.

Rebuttal: Unless you believe that the Old Testament is corrupted, God gave very specific instructions to his people, so they were actually observing the law when they called Jesus on his violations of it. Jesus would defend his disregard by saying there is stuff in the law on how the priests profane the temple on the Sabbath, yet are innocent (Matt 12:5), when there is NO such law in the entire OT. His defenses for breaking the law were pathetic, but he claimed to support following the law.

Christian: The fear of God is the beginning of understanding, you have no reverence for Him so you cannot understand Him.

Rebuttal: "Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man." -Ecclesiastes 12:13

Christian: You must read the next two verses to understand what he is saying.

Rebuttal: "For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil."

Have you read the ten commandments? Do you know what the punishment for breaking any single one of them is? Death. Does that sound a bit like breaking God's law is a serious offense? Maybe you should be worried about your standing on judgment day too... that is, if you really believe there is such a thing. Personally, I'm not so convinced. It seems more like fiction created by humans, along with the Hebrew law and the Judeo-Christian god.